November 04 2005 at 07:25:17
Name: Jim Ruddle
Email: jruddle@earthlink.net
Location: Rye, NY
Comments: Some recent postings remind me of a situation that must affect everybody who ever worked in broadcasting: You worked while others watched and listened.

I worked a lot of sign-ons, sign-offs, and everything in between. Much of my schedule was afternoons and nights, so I never saw what we were putting on the air, much less what the other guy was doing. As a result, I never saw "Laugh In," "All in the Family," "Mary Tyler Moore," "Miami Vice," "Hill Street Blues," or many other shows that are points of reference in a lot of conversations about broadcasting.

I'm sure that many of us who toiled with words, sound, or pictures seem like media illiterates to people who don't know the business.

(As a footnote, I was at an NBC party for advertisers and was next to the guy who had the lead on "Hill Street." I didn't know him from the ad saleman who had the Charmin account. The actor's name was Daniel-Blank-Something and when we were introduced to each other I said "Hello, Dan," This, apparently was not the thing to do. His face hardened and his eyes narrowed. "It's Daniel," he sternly corrected me.)

I wonder what ever happened to him?

Daniel J. Travanti at the IMDb.

He did go by "Dan Travanty" in a 1970 sci-fi movie, "The Love War", mentioned here by David Bagsby in Guestbook 135. An upward turn of his career coincided with the name change, so I can understand his attachment to the more efflorescent variation.

He also played CBS newsman Edward R. Murrow in a 1986 film, "Murrow" (co-starring Robert "Napoleon Solo" Vaughn as FDR).

A new movie about Murrow, "Good Night, and Good Luck" (reviewed here by Gary Chew), opens today in Tulsa at the Southroads 20.

By the way, the most memorable FDR portrayal I have ever seen was "FDR: A One Man Show" starring Chris Elliott. Eleanor was represented by an off-stage, muted wah-wah trumpet, as in "A Charlie Brown Christmas".

November 04 2005 at 00:05:57
Name: Greg Leslie
Location: Broken Arrow
Comments: Funny bit of satire in The Onion this week involving KFOR in Oklahoma City.

My baby brother Lance (who directs news there) has no idea where it came from -- it's not Bob Sr. in the picture, and the whole thing is obviously a put-on, but there are enough elements of truth to make it interesting.

November 03 2005 at 23:52:04
Name: Jim Reid
Location: Dallas
Comments: Thanks Sonny, the memory's coming back now. I never worked on Green Country Morning. That was Dan Miles' show. I was directing the evening shows by then. I definitely remember Sandy Hill!

November 03 2005 at 21:51:08
Name: Sonny Hollingshead
Location: Sand Springs
Comments: I think Channel 8 finally cleared both hours of GMA right after John Chick retired and the show ended. The new "live" morning show was called "Green Country Morning", co-hosted by Betty Boyd and Gene Wheatley. It ran from 5 til 7 in the AM, followed by GMA. David Hartman's co-host at that time was Sandy Hill.

A local radio note about Skitch Henderson. He hosted an easy listening pop music show for a while on KRAV-FM circa 1971, while he was musical director and conductor of the Tulsa Philharmonic. This was shortly after KRAV dropped the "soft" Top 40 format they had tried for a while in late 1969 and 1970.

November 03 2005 at 20:58:39
Name: Don Lundy
Email: don_lundy@rtv6.com
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Comments: To Jim Reid: My memory continues to get foggier but I do have recollections of GMA running on KTUL-TV. I left there in the Fall of 1976 but think we ran the second hour of a two-hour feed. I remember the opening sequence and David Hartman and Joan Lunden. Didn't work in the control room at an ABC affiliate after that so am sure KTUL cleared part of the show.

At the time, as I remember, KTUL preempted the first hour for The John Chick Show. Elton Rule, then president of the ABC Television Network came to Tulsa for a visit. Pushing Tom Goodgame and Jimmy Leake for a clearance for the rest of GMA, he couldn't believe Tulsans favored a show that featured local musical talent (a phrase I use loosely).

When shown the ratings and the backlog of advertisers lined up for the show, he backed off and agreed it was probably the right programming for Green Country.

November 03 2005 at 17:28:05
Name: Mike Garner
Email: bigredkc2002@yahoo.com
Location: Kansas, Okla.
Comments: I remember when I, my siblings and cousin were between 4 and 7 years old, Mom made reservations for us to be on MR. ZING AND TUFFY. This was around 1968 or 1969. When we entered the KTUL-TV studios, we were escorted to the MR. ZING AND TUFFY set, and I thought it was awesome. Between the first and second cartoons, we sang THIS LAND IS YOUR LAND, a song popularized by Peter, Paul and Mary. After the second cartoon, Mr. Zing (John Chick) and Tuffy and Shaggy Dog entertained us, and then the third cartoon, a Warner Bros. cartoon, aired. Then, all the kids were asked their names, and Mr. Zing said, in my case, HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MIKE. Then, he let us out of the bleachers and we hopped around on the floor while John sang "HELLO, HELLO, HELLO; GOOD-BYE, GOOD-BYE, GOOD-BYE" to end the show. Then, as a complimentary gift, just for being on the show, we all got gift certificates from McDonald's. Mom made reservations for us to be on there again, but by the time of the reservations, Mr. Zing was gone, and Uncle Zeb took over. A sad day for me and especially my sister.

November 03 2005 at 15:50:49
Name: Doug Huffman
Email: shaggie001@cox.net
Location: Tulsa
Comments: Does anyone remember back in the 60s, Pepsi and Charlie Brown Guitars sponsored a talent contest for an all female rock band? They called them "Tulsa Surprise Package" or "Surprise Package". What ever happened to Charlie and what ever happened to Surprise Package?

November 03 2005 at 15:43:16
Name: Doug Huffman
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Comments: Looking and reading through the archives, I see mentioned some of the radio stations as well. Does anyone remember when KELi DJ's all went with the last name of KELi? I remember the satalite where the KELi studios were at the fairgrounds as well.

KRMG had the "Great Raft Race" every year. I had the privilege from 1999 to 2001 of working with John Erling at Cox Radio. What a character, and what a priceless experience for me. He recently retired from KRMG. I wish him the best of luck, and a lot of relaxation.

November 03 2005 at 14:55:11
Name: Jim Reid
Location: Dallas
Comments: When did GMA start at KTUL? I don't remember it running when I was there. We had John Chick from 7-8, Cartoon Circus from 8-8:30 and Betty Boyd at 8:30, followed by the Morning Movie at 9. I was there from 75-81, and the last few years I worked nights, it might have been then.

I do remember watching the Rona Barrett segments being fed from LA to NY on the net lines before the show started. They were completely unedited and she had quite a mouth on her.

November 03 2005 at 13:55:46
Name: Doug Huffman
Location: Still in Tulsa, Oklahoma
Comments: Oh my God. This is so great reading all this and remembering the shows that are being told about.

I see that one of my classmates who has done really well in the cartoon world even signed the Guestbook. Congrats to you Mitch Schauer on your success. I am proud of you. I remember the Tuffy song, too, Mitch. I had been on Mr. Zing and Tuffy several times when I was a little kid.

I was also on a show with Big Bill and Oom-A-Gog (a robot) on Channel 2. Got home movies of both (the old 8mm). I remember the Uncanny Film Festival with G. Ailard S. Artain and Teddy Jack Eddy (Teddy Jkeddy) who became another star in the movie area.

Oh, by the way Mitch, you were demented when we were in school, right along with me.

November 03 2005 at 07:44:17
Name: Mike Bruchas
Comments: Gee - how times have changed - watching GOOD MORNING AMERICA 30th anniversary special and they touted HiDef TV and guess who one of the sponsors was - COMCAST Cable with dominates cable system ownership in the East and Mountain West. Are they in Tulsa yet?? Then again these daze - ALL 3 (ABC/CBS/NBC) network nightly newscasts are sponsored by WalMart!

Just heard from Don Lundy - we were talking about GMA's 30th bash. He's just back from New York and visiting ABC, Don said:

"I remember I was in the control room at KTUL-TV trying to get over the previous hour of "The John Chick Show". Still remember the changing traffic light open with morning scenes. And David Hartman guffawing "Good Morning" over and over and over and over."

Ditto here - the old GMA music is runnin' amuck in my brain the last 2 days. As I recall 8 originally did not want to give up the 7-8am time slot to ABC because it made mo' money on ads in "the John Chick Show"!

November 02 2005 at 07:35:37
Name: Mike Bruchas
Location: Fall-ish DC
Comments: Sad to hear this morning that former Tulsa Philharmonic conductor Skitch Henderson has passed...

As a kid of the last century - do you remenber buying red poppies at school or on the street for Nov. 11th? We are doing coverage of Prince Charles and Camilla in DC and all of the Brits from the BEEB have their poppies on. It's a "never forget" thing in the UK for Rememberance Day.

November 01 2005 at 13:46:45
Name: George Tomek
Email: mranchor@cox.net
Location: Edmond, OK 73034
Comments: Jim Ruddle's comments about cameraman Jack Richards, Marlin Perkins and "Wild Kingdom" reminded me of growing up in Chicagoland and Marlin Perkins. His pre-syndicated TV show there was "Zoo Parade" and, like most other early TV in Chicago, was great. Another big early name was Dave Garroway, whom NBC stole and brought to New York to really put the "Today Show" on the map.

November 01 2005 at 11:01:47
Name: Jim Ruddle
Email: jruddle@earthlink.net
Location: Rye, NY
Comments: Re:Wild Kingdom

A friend of mine, now deceased, Jack Richards, was a well-known and highly-regarded film cameraman, even serving as Director of Photography on a few Hollywood flicks.

But,in Chicago,those of us in the NewsBiz knew him as an excellent news shooter. We also knew that among his gigs was a continuing association with "Wild Kingdom," and Marlin Perkins.

Jack was unflappable, and had to be, because Perkins believed that the picture was all that mattered, and that cameramen were expendable.

In the jungles of Peru, Jack was filming some natural oddity for Perkins, who was standing alongside, when Jack felt a strange movement on one of his boots. Taking his eye from the viewfinder, he glanced down and saw that a viciously poisonous snake, one Perkins had warned them about, was coiling around his leg. "Marlin," he said. "There's a snake on my leg." "Keep shooting," was the reply.

November 01 2005 at 00:39:45
Name: roy lee
Email: beerdrunk@msn.com
Location: the incredible deep
Comments: I was more of a Cousteau man, the ocean is creepier to me than the jungle I guess ,and he had that ridiculous accent too! Also, if the burger is good enough for the Wolfman and Waylon and Jessi, it's good enough for me!

November 01 2005 at 00:18:30
Name: David Bagsby
Email: dcbatsunflower.com
Location: Lawrence KS
Comments: Now the official Xmas season can begin and what better way than a clip reel of monkeys peeing on TV Hosts. All the greats from Uncle Zeb to Johnny Carson. Available only a Skaggs!

October 31 2005 at 19:29:30
Name: Wilhelm Murg
Email: wilhelmurg@ yahoo dot com
Location: Spinning around the traffic circle looking for The Village Twin
Comments: I saw Gary Thompson's posting on the great Wolfman Jack and I was reminded that Hank's Hamburgers, which is on Admiral, east of Memorial, has an autographed picture of The Wolfman on their wall. I had lunch there last week with Roy Lee and we were practically sitting under the icon; I take it the Wolfman also had lunch there at some point. They also have photographs of Waylon Jennings and his wife eating their anniversary diner at the stand. Personally, I highly recommend Hank's, but I'm an Arnold's fanatic.

The only disappointment this Halloween was that I bought a copy of EVIL DEAD a few weeks ago at Vintage Stock, and as I was leaving, I saw the poster that the Circle was playing it for Halloween (this last weekend as their midnight movie). I would have love to have gone, but having the DVD in hand, it seemed kind of pointless to go to the show, so we ended up seeing WALLACE & GROMIT in CURSE OF THE WERE-RABBIT which was awesome!

Next month the Circle is showing RUN LOLA RUN, which we also have on DVD. John Waters was right in the documentary MIDNIGHT MOVIES; video DID kill the format. Now we can all have sex, use illegal substances, get drunk, and yell at the screens in our own homes instead of going to the theatre (actually, the new George Carlin HBO Special coming up this Saturday night will probably be our Midnight movie this weekend). The worst midnight movie showing I have ever attended was around 1985 at the Boman; we saw THE BLUES BROTHERS and some people in the audience started dancing to the songs, but an usher came along and told them to sit down. I knew that was the end of the format (and, sadly, the Boman too). Since we have NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD and ROCKY HORROR both on DVD, I'm sure one or the other will fired up tonight.

Happy Halloween to all!

October 31 2005 at 15:52:01
Name: Steve Bagsby
Location: Primate Cage at the St. Louis Zoo
Comments: Mutual of Omaha's "WILD KINGDOM"....with your host Marlin Perkins. OK class, how many got your first taste of zoology with this show? Or "The Undersea World of Jacques Cousteau"....or Zoo Day on Uncle Zeb? (you can begin humming the old "National Geographic Theme" here).

October 31 2005 at 12:35:04
Name: Erick
Email: ericktul@yahoo.com
Location: Tulsa
Comments: I actually prefer "Tex" to "The Outsiders". I must admit I haven't seen "Rumble Fish", but I hear it is very good.

To me, "The Outsiders" made a better book than a movie.

October 31 2005 at 10:19:12
Name: Chris Turner (via email to webmaster)
Location: Wyoming
Comments: My name is Chris Turner, a Tulsa native.... I grew up with King Lionel, Mr. Zing and later with Mazeppa.

I was Groucho at Molly Murphy's (the Tulsa one) for their first year. I later went on to work at CNN for 21 years as a war producer and senior international editor. I retired to take care of my dad, Bartlesville native/CNN executive Ed Turner when he came down with cancer. After his passing, I bought a ranch in Wyoming.

I live outside of Cody, Wyoming now and I have started a comedy/music variety show on a couple of radio stations out here. It is very Mazeppa-influenced...hey, if you are going to copy someone, copy from the masters. It is one of only about 5 shows of its kind in the country.

My show is called Comfort Food, Meatloaf and Mashed Potatoes for Your Mind.

You can listen to past shows on the archives page.

I love your website, I check it out several times a month and I enjoy it... and I still have my Uncola-Mazeppa poster.

October 31 2005 at 08:47:55
Name: Dan
Location: Tulsa, OK
Comments: Whenever I hear a reporter on television talk about the "public’s right to know"— a phrase usually uttered after the station receives a barrage of criticism for broadcasting something horrific or salacious— I am reminded of an incident that I believe occurred in the mid-80s. I had the story told to me by two media personnel and I have often wondered if anyone else heard it. Apparently a local man holed himself up in a residence and threatened to blow his brains out. The police made their way to the scene and cordoned off the area. The press made their appearance as well. After what I believe was a relatively short period of time the incident ended. The man was talked out of his suicide attempt and led away unharmed, while the press returned to their offices to write copy and edit the tapes. Then the word went out that the distraught man was the boyfriend of a local television reporter. At that point, in every station in town, the written copy, the edited tapes, and the story as a whole disappeared like magic. Apparently, the Tulsa public has the right to know many things, both public and personal, about many people but the lives of reporters are off limits. Does this sound familiar to anyone?

October 31 2005 at 01:02:49
Name: Steve
Location: Eastside
Comments: Anyone remember in the 70s a radio station had a treasure hunt and would give out clues on air to find it and people were digging up yards and graves looking for it? It ended up being at the Ma-Hu mansion across from Oertle's in the front by the rock fence.

October 30 2005 at 13:50:48
Name: Gary Thompson
Email: Gary@kxoj.com
Location: Jinx....takin' a nap
Comments:

Many (including me) didn't know that Wolfman jack made a stop here in Tulsa in 1994 to do a live show from Kool 106.1 FM.

Here's the link to the aircheck.

Wish I'd known he was in town at the time. I'da dropped by to see him. I think this was right before Clear Channel bought them.

October 30 2005 at 07:18:19
Name: edwin
Email: yep
Location: nope
Comments: Was informed Mon. about a talent TV show on location at Edison High School on Thurs. No info on what songs were to be sung, nor sound check, nor lite check, etc......I DO love "on the fly", but, uh....in any case, if Amber H. or Taylor A. checks in here (told them 'bout it) they should be known as High School stagecraft at it's best! They saved my very soul. Sometimes you can feel so proud of what's behind you....ya know?

October 29 2005 at 11:23:56
Name: Sam Loveall
Email: lsl@roanokebible.edu
Location: Eastern Swamp North Carolina
Comments: The new release of "Rumble Fish" has, as I said, a nice "making of" feature, and the optional commentary by Coppola is interesting.

The following link will take you to a site with a whole lot of detail about the movie, including an extensive listing and description of filming locations around Tulsa.

http://www.fast-rewind.com/rumblefish.htm

That is an excellent site and links back to this one in its "UHF" review.

October 28 2005 at 17:05:13
Name: Sam Loveall
Email: lsl@roanokebible.edu
Location: Eastern Swamp North Carolina
Comments: Question: Why does "The Outsiders" get so much play and talk on the board, while "Tex" and "Rumble Fish" pretty much go ignored?

Just curious. I rented and watched "Rumble Fish" last night. They've issued a new release with some "making of" features.

I'm not sure why they receive less comment here; could be there was more local participation in "The Outsiders". I loved "Tex", and there is a lot of Tulsa in the movie. So that is a very good suggestion. I know that Stewart Copeland of the Police recorded the "Rumble Fish" soundtrack here at Longbranch Studios.

October 27 2005 at 21:44:39
Name: Webmaster
Comments: Sent an item to Boing Boing today about new, free NASA software that flies you to the moon on your PC.

10/28: And again on Boing Boing with John Erling's recording of a 1952 Armed Forces Network broadcast from the real Frankenstein Castle. The site may slow down for a day or so during "rush hours" as a result of this high-profile link.

Other odd, pop culture items contributed by your webmaster to Boing Boing are on the About TTM page.

October 27 2005 at 17:57:27
Name: Wilhelm Murg
Email: wilhelmurg@ yahoo dot com
Location: Wolfman's Records
Comments: At the record show last week I picked up a mono mix of The Beatles' "Revolution No.9," which I still consider to be one of their most important pieces (along with The Ornette Coleman Quartet's appearence on Yoko's PLASTIC ONO BAND album, it inspired people like me to wonder off into experimental music).

Mono mixes of music from the 1960s hold an important place for collectors because everything had to be mixed manually. When you get to psychedelic mixes of The Beatles (like "Tomorrow Never Knows" or the keyboard section of "Being for The Benefit of Mr. Kite") you often end up with VERY different mixes. "Revolution No.9" is no exception; the mono mix is a little more "Monty Python" than more famous "brown acid" stereo mix.

With all of that said, I thought of a point that I never heard a historian address; we know Charles Manson referenced a Catholic Bible for his delusions (a point not lost on literary students - many a Protestant lit major has been thrown off course by using a King James Bible to reference the works of F.Scott Fitzgerald, who also used a Catholic Bible - I think the ten commandments are in a slightly different order,) yet no one has ever mentioned if Manson was using a mono mix of THE BEATLES (aka THE WHITE ALBUM) or the more common stereo mix. If it WAS the mono mix that set him off, Manson is even crazier than I thought! As the late, great Tulsan, Sam Kinison, screamed about Manson "YOU WOULD'VE HEARD THE SAME THING IN G****** MONKEES RECORD! THEY WEREN'T EVEN A REAL GROUP! OH! PUT HIM BACK IN THE HOLE!!!

Are my posts uniformed? (aside from the fact that I'm usually off subject).

Wilhelm's last line refers to a post that was deleted, just so you don't think he is crazy.

October 27 2005 at 10:07:38
Name: Scott Linder
Location: Hollywoodland
Comments: To Charlie, sorry I didn't mention Mack Creager's sign-off. I wish I had been "headin' home" after those games, but I had to stick around for a few more hours to do "Sleepwalkers" and "Music for Pleasant Dreams". By the way, the live broadcasts from Oiler Park were were done via telco back to Broadcast Center. The announce mics were Westrex/Altec 639Bs with a Altec 631 "Salt Shaker" outside the booth for the crowd. As I recall, some of the young regulars caught-on to this, and would throw various items at the crowd mic from time to time, resulting in a "thunk" . It took me a while to figure out what the noise was!! Ahhh....memories!!

October 26 2005 at 10:18:16
Name: Mike Bruchas
Comments: Oh no! Elmer "Len" Dresslar Jr., who extolled vegetables to generations of TV watchers as the booming voice of the Jolly Green Giant, has died. He was 80. His voice rang through millions of households when he sang the simple refrain, "Ho, Ho, Ho," in an ad jingle for Green Giant foods. Dresslar, a Kansas native, moved to Chicago with his wife in the early 1950s to study voice after touring with a production of "South Pacific." By the 1960s, the Navy veteran had carved out a career singing in clubs, on television and in advertising jingles. He periodically re-recorded the "Ho, Ho, Ho" for Jolly Green Giant commercials, most recently about 10 years ago.

October 26 2005 at 04:41:40
Name: Stephen Spees
Location: Copperas Cove
Comments: Hello. Wow, what a site! I am a native Tulsan, currently a military contractor.

I grew up on the TV staples of Lee Woodward and King Lionel, and Gusty. My early years there were near downtown and Owen Park, before the park became a less-than-desirable place to be.

I lived in North Tulsa and then Central Tulsa before my military career took me all over the world. I noticed some old McLain classmates still are around. (John Durkee, KRMG) He was '73, and I was in theatrical class with him. I was '72.

The Tulsa Weather Tower (NBT building) was beacon to the downtown area with its green-red and flashing colors to warn the locals of weather changes. Why they stopped it is a mystery...should have kept it...

I listened a lot to KELi on the radio. Mazeppa was my late night favorite with weird stuff & movies and zaniness to enjoy. Is Peoria still called the "Restless Ribbon"?

My sister, Elizabeth, was nicknamed "Pepsi" because she only drank Pepsi. She had her birthday party on the "Dance Party," I think, in 1970 and invited me with a date. That was fun!! I think she may have known Gary Chew, or at least met him.

I still have good memories of Uncle Zeb, Mr. Zing and Tuffy, and other TV notables...

There was a home-place called "The Closing Gap" near downtown, now closed or torn down, that was a young people's haven for music, quiet and just hang out in 1968-69... a two story home with laid-back friendliness. I went there with a few friends and my sister. She was always so cool.

I will be checking out the other posts here! This is really a cool site! Anyone from Tulsa McLain, drop a line!

Thanks, Stephen. Owen Park today is a cool, historic neighborhood, with Tulsa's oldest surviving house.

October 24 2005 at 09:30:44
Name: Charlie Tooley
Email: charlie_tooley@acordia.com
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Comments: Subject: Tulsa Oiler Baseball in the early 1950s and Mack Creager

I enjoyed by chance seeing the information displayed here and especially some stories concerning the re-enactments that Mack did for Tulsa baseball in the early 1950s.

I was a kid who loved baseball. Lived it, played it and listed to Mack almost every summer night till he signed off the air. In the summertime I could stay up late and I usually kept score by listening to Mack on the radio. I just wonder how many listeners kept scorecards when they listened to Mack?

Of course, even as young and naive as I was, I caught Mack with a few errors in his stats... but I loved the game... Andy Anderson yelling "Let's GOOOOOO... TULSA! and those 8th and 9th inning "pop bottle rallies" we used to cheer for in that old wood ballpark! Ahh... I can almost smell the roasted peanuts and all the men smoking those cigars!

I rode the train to KC a few times on the "Mickey Mantle Special" to see the Kansas City Athletics, play the New York Yankees. Hugh Finnerty and his son was on the train and I really felt special to shake hands with them.

However, I can't believe no one said anything about Mack's trademark signing off of Tulsa Oiler Baseball: "This is Mack Creager, rounding third and headin' home..."

Thanks for keeping this website open and available to guys like me... to recall the wonderful years of growing up in Tulsa and Tulsa media.

October 23 2005 at 15:26:29
Name: Scott Linder
Location: Hollywood Land
Comments: I'm mixing a mid-season sitcom called "Crumbs" for ABC. It features Jane Curtin, William Devane and Fred Savage. The scripts are very funny...a notch above most of the "stuff" that assails us on network TV these days. Not sure when the first show will air, but please watch so that this old Tulsa boy will keep working!! Thanks to all my hometown friends.

By the way, the folks at Pinks here in Hollywood are able to pretty closely replicate a Coney Islander, thanks to my humble input. The chili is not quite the same "Cincinnati" style, but the overall taste is pretty close. The wieners have a good "snap", the onions are finely minced and the taste is very close. If I keep visiting, maybe they'll add a "Tulsa Coney" to their printed menu someday soon. I'll keep you posted...

October 22 2005 at 04:22:20
Name: Webmaster
Comments: Archived Guestbook 194...